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Beltaine fox

Trump tries his own Syria

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Again, you're saying this.  Not me.

oh well spotted, but where did I say Scotland would be pure Gaelic nirvana if the clearances in Arran hadn't happened? Why you still actually expect me to respect you enough to write serious replies, when you play these dishonest games? 
 

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I'm saying you're full of shit for even ATTEMPTING to compare black slavery with Scottish emigration.  But you just keep doing it.  Because you are full of shit.  Just like you keep trying to argue that we need to ELIMINATE IMMIGRATION.  Even though it's part of the human condition here on this planet.  And you keep repeating that the crime of immigration is the loss of wealth to the home nation and the loss of culture. 

Anyway here's my clan.  Can I be the head of it?  I have a sword around here somewhere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacFarlane

Edited by Cosmoline

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To bring this back around, your idea that we should argue against the Venezuela nonsense by pointing out that more caravans will come if we invade is not just stupid but dangerous.  Trying to link up with Trumpite know-nothings on the grounds that isolationism is good not only undercuts critical human values, it risks letting them take over the whole fucking country.  Isolating them with the right of the GOP is GOOD.  We DO NOT WANT THEM. 

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6 hours ago, Beltaine fox said:

 

It would be kinda shallow to assume that just cause they say that to you, it must me true, especially if they aren't retirees, are you close enough to them to get deeper?

My partner's mother came here as a tourist in the 60s and stayed because she liked it. She went back to the UK to visit and it just made her happier to be in Australia. 

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Our species exists outside of Africa because migration is what we do and have always done.

This is expansion and dispersal in nomadic hunter gatherer groups, since then we developed settled societies, after which most mass migrations where brought about by conquest, famine or poverty. Likewise if environmental conditions deteriate it will be a push factor. 
 

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1 minute ago, lisae said:

My partner's mother came here as a tourist in the 60s and stayed because she liked it. She went back to the UK to visit and it just made her happier to be in Australia. 

 

Obviously she liked more than just the weather then

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Oh, Scotland's Isle of Arran versus Ireland's Aran Islands where the best woolly jumpers (sweaters) are made, with Scotland's Pringle jumpers a close second (made of wool too, not potato).

Carry on, for 'taint 'arf fascinatin'

Touch. Pause. Enrage

Edited by Snorky

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How much will the US Government (or local Alaskan immigration tribunal) pay me to come over there?

I understand Snowy made the trek, so how much did he get?  [or was that to Seattle?]

I think he did it just to see proper snow and freeze his tits off? Not just to compete in Wrestlemania IV at the pub.

I refuse to fly Alaska Airlines.

Whatever happened to Snowy? He didn't fly Alaska Airlines did he?

Or maybe Lise scared him off too. That girl's got form.

Coo-eeeeeeeeeee Jasmine

Edited by Snorky

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Snowball abides!  The adventures we've had are the stuff of small, strange legends.  Most recently I threw my back out due to our exertions.

Alaska Airlines is fine!  Not as good as they used to be, I grant you.  But still fine.  Anyway we don't have a choice.

Edited by Cosmoline

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What, you don't got no freedom of choice of who you fly with in or out of the 'Great Nation of Alaska'?  Crikey.

Have you secretly reverted back to Soviet control?   

Better immigrate, old china.  Foxy'll give you directions, no worries (including instructions on how best to apply blackface make-up for maximum effect).

Whatever happened to your Squiggly Downunder plans?

Edited by Snorky

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58 minutes ago, Snorky said:

Or maybe Lise scared him off too. That girl's got form.

Nearly everyone you've accused me of scaring off is friends with me on FB, including Snowball. 

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Importantly, is Jasmine a so-called "Facebook friend"?

If the answer is "no", please don't make up excuses like: "But she's not on Facebook any longer because she thought it was too personally intrusive, so she shut her Facebook account down ages ago, and you bloody well know that."

Well, other than hearsay that's as may be, but without evidence to the contrary Lise, I put it to you that you scared her off.

Edited by Snorky

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On the plus side, I don't think our current excuse for a president has the mental capacity to actually put together any major response in Venezuela. 

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20 hours ago, Beltaine fox said:

Another American failing to grasp that the point is not about which racial group is the bigger victim. It's about immigration/emigration itself

The point you are ignoring is that America gained from immigration, it was a completely undeveloped continent, it sucked up other countries labour power and skills to develop and it's still doing this by enforcing trade conditions and creating wars and regime changes all of which increase poverty in the third world and thus creates immigration which is then serves as exploited labour in the US.

Slavery, indentured servantry, fleeing poverty, famine and war, all of them are examples of forced emigration/immigration to different degrees. Americas owning elite benefited from all of these, therefore today immigration due to poverty or war is simply serving a similar economic function to slavery. All the labour power immigrating into the US is lost to their native country. Mass migration is a system of exploitation.

Bollocks. 19th century America, which was NOT the dominant power then that it was today, gained for multiple reasons beyond the availability of undeveloped land.

1) Economic oppression, with the Irish famine being the most extreme example

2) Political repression; many of our first German immigrants were fleeing in the aftermath of the failed 1848 revolution.

3) Religious oppression -- the vast number of Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe fleeing pogroms.

4) Conscription -- as the late 19th Century European militaries grew on the back of conscripts, many opted out and came here instead.

When the economic well being of European workers improved, the rate of immigration from those countries has gone down. Now we are at the point it would be batshit crazy for a Norwegian to come to the US, the quality of life is better there. [exaggeration for effect, there is marriage, educational opportunities and other reasons one might emigrate anyway, but I'm talking about the general well being of the entire population here].

The part you, and many Americans as well, miss, is that the exploitation of undeveloped land was a government project. Canals, locks, railroads, bridges and highways are the most tangible investments are only part of the story. Projects such as Lincoln's Homestead Act and land grant colleges, or the post WWII GI Bill and VA housing loans have been economic benefits for the people which historically, even after slavery, have been denied. So the black experience is fundamentally different because

a. They were brought against their will, where Europeans were either fleeing oppression or voluntarily seeking the economic benefits.

b. In colonial days, being an indentured servant was a term of service, not lifetime slavery that you were born into.

c. They were systematically denied the franchise and the opportunities given to whites, through programs such as VA loans.

The point isn't about "victimhood" per se; the point is that the black experience is different. A lot of black history is the story of surviving this oppression and the struggle for equality, from the Buffalo Soldiers to WEB DuBois' "talented tenth" to John Lewis walking across the Edmund Pettis bridge to Elijah Cummings determination to fight voter suppression through passing HR1. But if you don't understand the history of race in the US, you don't understand US history at all. It is fundamental, and entwined with our economic history in a way that is virtually impossible to separate. So it's not just down to degrees of forced immigration, it matters that different groups of immigrants received very different treatment and had very different levels of social mobility once here.

Finally, the main historic waves of immigration to the US came from the potato famine in 1845 until the restrictive legislation of the 1920s. The USA was not the dominant power then that it was today; all the reasons I listed above were achieved by European governments without US help. You do have some valid arguments about what is happening now, but that doesn't change your utter lack of understanding of US history.

 

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1 hour ago, mikey mikey said:

That's why Eliot is getting the Banda back together.

Elliott Abrams is one of the most disgraceful human beings my country has ever produced.

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Starky, can I just take this opportunity to acknowledge that marvellously eloquent penultimate post of yours above. 

More please. 

<topic 52055  #comment 1055094>

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Bollocks. 19th century America, which was NOT the dominant power then that it was today

Nothing in what you are saying contradicts anything I said, you didn't have to be a monopolar global superpower to exploit either African slaves or the poor in Europe (by a whole bunch of different means at different times and places). Incidently Ashkenazi emigration to the US was mostly a C20th thing and the major religious repression spurring emigration was Protestant vs Catholic.

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with the Irish famine being the most extreme example

Because you apparently don't know of anything else!

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When the economic well being of European workers improved, the rate of immigration from those countries has gone down. Now we are at the point it would be batshit crazy for a Norwegian to come to the US, the quality of life is better there.

Exactly, and so the only way to artrophy immigration is more equality globally, therefore omnipolar global powers are a bad thing.

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The part you, and many Americans as well, miss, is that the exploitation of undeveloped land was a government project. 

This makes absolutely no difference to what I said, you seem to be debating with the federalist American in your head.

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They were brought against their will, where Europeans were either fleeing oppression or voluntarily seeking the economic benefits.

Although there are a variety of reasons for various Europeans over time, some where burnt out of there homes and driven at gun point into the boats, especially in Scotland. Some were actual slaves, not indentured servants, most of them being prisoners of war like Jacobite rebels, the difference between them and black slaves is that their children weren't enslaved. 

Further fleeing famine isn't a choice, and this argument, your inability to grasp that none of this is a competition over which ethnicity suffered the most, illustrates why America has failed to develop a powerful left wing and working class movement, it's always undermined by competition between different ethnicities, therefore blinding you to the economic function, what all these different forced migrations hold in common, subsequently we are only talking past each other.

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The point isn't about "victimhood" per se; the point is that the black experience is different.

It's me trying to get a point through to you here, and your cloth ears not hearing it, you don't get to tell me what my point is. For starters I'm not talking about effin ANYONE'S "experience", I'm talking about how America's owning class benefits from several different forms of immigration, many of which were not free choices. You are looking at the issue from the perspective of a settler society that has received immigrants, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a society that has suffered from emigration. I've heard all the stuff you are saying before.

Edited by Beltaine fox

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